Ordinary People Extraordinary Things
Hope. Real Hope.
Real stories.
From ordinary people, just like you.
🎙️ NEW podcast episode every other Sunday!
Ordinary People Extraordinary Things
94. Unveiling New Insights: The Power of Storytelling and Faith with Brad Nelson
What if revisiting familiar stories could open up a world of new insights and growth? Join us as we sit down with Brad, an inspiring teacher from Walking the Text, to uncover the enduring power of storytelling woven into Biblical narratives. As we explore how Walking the Text has transformed our family's homeschool experience, we promise you'll gain fresh perspectives on even the most well-known tales. Brad's passion for storytelling and education shines through, inspiring both young minds and those seeking deeper knowledge.
Amidst our conversation, we delve into the importance of understanding the Bible's rich context. From personal stories of growing up in a Southern Baptist tradition to discovering new dimensions in Leviticus, we embrace the idea of "second naivete." Through this lens, the Bible becomes a guide rather than a puzzle to solve, steering us toward a more profound spiritual adventure. This episode challenges listeners to embrace humility and recognize the beauty of what remains unknown in their faith journey.
Navigating the complexities of faith, especially through pain and doubt, reveals opportunities for profound growth. We share personal tales of loss and crisis, affirming that questioning and re-evaluating beliefs can lead to spiritual maturity. With lessons from the Sermon on the Mount and the impact of small, thoughtful actions, we highlight the significance of kindness and openness to change. Embark on this exploration with us, as we reflect on faith's dynamic nature and the transformative power of embracing life's uncertainties.
See the entire episode…
https://youtu.be/Ezb8dfzfUvA
CORRECTION: I misspoke when I referenced "Job's prayer" in the book of Job. I meant Jonah's prayer from the belly of the fish in the book of Jonah. -Brad
Watch more content from Brad @ https://walkingthetext.com/
https://generationstogenerations.com/podcast
ordinarypeoplestories@gmail.com
https://www.facebook.com/ordinarypeoplestory
https://www.instagram.com/ordinarypeopleextraordinary/
X: @storiesextra
Any advice should be confirmed with a qualified professional.
All rights reserved: Ordinary People Extraordinary Things
Stories shared by guests may not always be shared views of OPET.
Being a guest does not mean OPET approves of every decision or action in the guests' life.
We all have a story, all of us, share your story. You don't have to have the perfect answer or the perfect life - share what Jesus is doing in your life. This is an easy, real way to witness & share your testimony.
Welcome to Ordinary People, extraordinary Things. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm Nancy, your host, and I get to talk to ordinary people just like you about real stories, stories of hope. Don't we all need some more hope in our lives? If you love this podcast, please share it. Please share it on social media, send a text, send an email. Help us get the word out about Ordinary People, extraordinary Things. Well, welcome to Ordinary People, extraordinary Things. I'm so glad that Brad is on. Brad, thanks for being on the podcast this morning.
Speaker 2:I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1:So, brad and I, we've gotten to know each other because you've been able to come to our church and speak, and then this friendship has grown and I'm just so grateful for it and so grateful for the wisdom that you've poured out to us in so many ways.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you Likewise.
Speaker 1:And Brad is part of Walking the Text and I will for sure put all of the links on there because I talk about it a lot. It is one of the things that has truly changed our lives, and just being able to listen. I even tell people that once a week it's actually part of our homeschool agenda. Now it has been for a few years that we watch one a week, so I don't think that you necessarily made it for kids, but, uh, that it's just been part of our lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's interesting. We so it's not made for kids, but we've actually had a number of homeschool and Christian school organizations who've reached out to us who are who are using it as their Bible curriculum in their schoolwork and it's really really cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that at first I was like we were Chris and I, my husband and I were listening to it. And then what happened was and I think I've told you this story, but it was Christmas time and I had asked the kids like what'd you learn at church? And they were like and I had asked the kids like what did you learn at church? And they were like nothing, because we know this story. And I was like, oh, and there's nothing against, like Sunday school, love Sunday school, but obviously they're meeting a certain you know people that maybe don't go to church every single Sunday and you know it is going to be a little bit more surface level. And so when they said that, I was like, oh, my goodness, I don't want my kids to think that already at the age of I don't know nine, like my son, I've got the Bible figured out or I've at least got the Christmas story figured out.
Speaker 1:We listened to one of the Christmas ones and my question at the end, always whenever we listen, is like just one thing, what's one thing you took away? And David said I didn't know any of it and I was like, and instead of it being a downer, and I guess I don't know anything about the Bible. This is way too much. It was actually so uplifting to him to have this knowledge that he didn't have before, and that was just so cool to see.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, I'll actually. I'm actually going to talk about that, I think, as we get further into the conversation. But I've always thought probably one of the highest compliments that you can be given as a teacher you know when you're teaching in different places is when somebody who's been following Jesus for decades I'll never forget. One time I taught on Jonah and this woman who is in her late seventies came up to me and she's just was beaming and she said I've never heard that before. And I was like, oh yes, that's's like. Its capacity to just always be new and have something more is unbelievable, and children can like they can capture that. I mean, it blows my mind that you know my kids will come with me to these speaking events and we'll be riding home and they'll call back my sermon in context, like with intelligence. I'm like, oh my gosh, you're nine years old, but you're connecting those dots.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, before we get too far down, I do want to say if people don't know who you are, I want to ask you what are three words or phrases to describe yourself?
Speaker 2:phrases to describe yourself. Yeah, well, one and I do not mean this as a compliment to myself, but driven, and it is an unfortunate part of my personality that I am really having to work against. One of the things that my wife and I will often do on Saturday mornings after coffee is to look at each other and ask this question what do you want to get done today? Like resting is so hard for me. In fact, my day off tends to be one of the most difficult days of the week for me, because I think I'm just so addicted to doing and achieving and conquering. So that's in there, unfortunately.
Speaker 2:Another thing I would say is a questioner, or maybe curious or inquisitive. I, my friends, will often tell me just stop asking questions, because you ask these questions that they poke and they probe and they prod and like I saw somebody last week that I haven't seen in 15 years and we're like three minutes into the conversation and I asked him a question and he said to me geez, haven't seen each other in 15 years and we're going straight into a counseling session.
Speaker 2:So, surface right. Oh yeah, yeah, there's, there's that. And then, yeah, the other thing I would say would just be storyteller. I grew up with family who are just incredible storytellers, who love to laugh, and I see the world through the lens of stories and very often, you know, come to the end of my day or the end of my week and I just have these little stories that I came across. That and it's, it's literally my operating system, it's how I make sense of the world around me. So I was driven, driven, questioner, storyteller.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's so good. How did you become so passionate about learning about the Bible or teaching about the Bible in context, and maybe would you kind of, I guess, say what context means? I threw out that word and all of a sudden I realized I know what I'm saying, but maybe someone who doesn't watch Walking the Text or hasn't, who doesn't watch Walking the Text or hasn't- really talked about the Bible like that might not know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think everybody is probably can relate to. We've all been taken out of context. You say something, your words get repeated, but the person who repeats your words doesn't include the certain context in which you said them. And you know your words, when taken out of context, can be made to mean all kinds of things, and so we understand that. And what happens is we do the same thing with the Bible, and so understanding the context of the Bible is to say, all right, well, what were the situations, what were the settings? So this would be things like the history, the culture, the geography, the literary design, the languages, the Greek and the Hebrew backgrounds and even the visual aspects of the Bible, because, you know, a picture is worth a thousand words, and people will say this all the time when they go to the land of Israel worth a thousand words, and people will say this all the time when they go to the land of Israel. It's like you see the Bible in a different way for the rest of your life because you've been there and you've seen, and so that really is the idea behind context, and I would say I think I was predisposed to fall in love with that way of reading the Bible.
Speaker 2:First, because I grew up in a tradition where I was taught to love the Bible. So my father is a Southern Baptist pastor. He has been the pastor at First Baptist Church of Swartz Creek, michigan, for over 30 years and I grew up going to church there and I, just like I knew the Bible stories and I loved them and you know there's a lot from my Southern Baptist upbringing that I was happy to leave behind as I've grown and matured. But, boy, there's a lot of good that I have been a real recipient of that I wanted to hold on to, and so I think it just it predisposed me. But exactly like what you were talking about with your kids, by the time I graduated high school and went off to college and it was a Christian college, christian university. You've heard these stories a hundred times and I'll never forget.
Speaker 2:I started attending a church in Grand Rapids, michigan, and the pastor launched the church by spending a year going, verse by verse, through the book of Leviticus in its ancient Jewish context, and it was absolutely mind blowing for a couple of reasons. One, when you started to piece together the culture, the history, the geography, a lot of times these passages that you thought you understood or that were just really weird and didn't make any sense at all. Well, once you added that information, they started to make perfect sense, and so that was really fascinating. But then what it did is it gave me and maybe you're familiar with this phrase a second naivete. It's like that feeling when something that you've had or possessed for a long time and you thought you had it figured out, it's like it's brand new all over again and that is the endearing nature of the Bible to me is like there is just no end.
Speaker 2:You know, the Bible is really this genre of what we would call Jewish meditation literature. In other words, tim Mackey of the Bible Project says this a lot that the Bible is not designed to yield its secrets easily. It's the kind of thing you're meant to meditate on and chew on. And, by the way, that word meditate in Hebrew is haggah, and it can mean to meditate, but it can also mean to chew, like the way that a lion would devour its prey and give out these like growls of delight while it's chewing it. We're meant to read scripture that way so long, lovingly, slowly, savoringly, and over time it just keeps giving off more and more and more. So I, you know, it was that I had that love for the Bible number one. The context made sense of stuff that was confusing and it gave me that second naivete. And so I mean, then I went on an Israel trip and you know, once you see, you can't unsee, once you taste, you can't untaste. And I was, I was hooked.
Speaker 1:What if someone's listening and saying so? I can never figure it out. Is that exciting for you or is that frustrating?
Speaker 2:Well. So I would nuance that to say this I think that there is this misunderstanding about wisdom. I used to think when I was young that wisdom meant having all the answers, and the older you got, the more wise you were, the more you had all the answers. But of course, the older I get and the more I learn, the less I'm certain of, but, strangely, the more I'm confident in and I actually think that you see this especially when you read through the wisdom literature, in the Bible, proverbs especially, you see that real wisdom is not having all the answers, but knowing just how much you don't know and putting yourself in this like right place before God. That's like you are, god.
Speaker 2:I'm not, I don't have all the answers, but my job is to be a student who's pursuing, and I actually love that because, you know, I grew up in a tradition where the pastor was supposed to be Bible answer man. But there is something about this. Wow, there's always something new. You never quite get to the bottom, it's all. It's almost like you're not meant to master the Bible, the Bible's meant to master you, and as it comes to master you more and more, oh, it's just a. It's just, it's a joyous, a joyous experience good, that's really good.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I'd want to follow a god that I could completely understand yep, well, exactly because then, if, if you completely understand and you can pull all the levers, then you're just dealing with a cosmic vending machine and let God, as a projection of you, which we all are guilty of at some point, what would you say to someone who's listening, that's afraid to dive in because maybe they're saying, like faith is just believing and I'll just believe.
Speaker 1:And this is how I felt in high school. College was really wanted to believe in God. I really wanted to keep believing in God, but I was afraid to do any kind of of learning because I thought what if God can't hold up? What if he can't hold up to science? What if he can't hold up to my questions? What would you say to someone who's in that boat?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So first I would just say I would start with compassion because I think it is a valid fear. And it's a valid fear because, having gone through a pretty tragic experience in my life that forced me into a crisis of faith, I can say, without question, it is incredibly unnerving to have your foundation pulled out from underneath you, your worldview, the way you think about God, who God is, how he interacts with the world, interacts with the world right, and then you experience cancer or somebody dies. In my case, you know, my brother-in-law was a friend of mine, married my little sister. They were 21 years old. He went to Iraq, was there for 30 days and was killed by an explosion, an improvised explosive, and it just gutted, it, absolutely destroyed my faith. I was praying for him more faithfully than I'd prayed for anything else in my entire life. My whole family was and I'm holding on to. You know these promises. You know the prayer of a righteous person is effective. You have not, because you ask not If you pray with faith believing. You ask not if you pray with faith believing and I just was like, how can this be? We, we were doing everything right and his death really exposed my faith for the house of cards that it was, and I spent a year like wrestling, asking questions and and, honestly, raging, raging against God. And I came to this place where I realized, okay, either Karl Marx was right and religion is just an opiate for the masses to make people feel better about their misery, or I have misunderstood this thing from the ground up and I have to go back and rethink everything. And so that's what I did, and it was terrifying. Really, it's just to have the rug pulled out from under you does not feel good, and I actually think that there are like, we may get to a point in life. I think anybody, anybody can rethink things, anybody. But I think the tendency of human beings is we get to a certain point in life. Like, I have certain family members who are at an age where I don't think they could do that work. It would just be too upsetting, right. So I would just begin by saying it's a valid fear, but I would say also it's a pretty low view of God. Like, what if God can't stand up to science? Well, what do you believe in then? Really, like, do you believe in the power of science over the power of God? Do you believe you know God can't handle your questions. I mean, look at the Psalms. God has room for people's rage. God actually invites people's questions, their lament, their rage and so, but we're just not told that. We're not told that and this is the thing I would say is that life will bring you to this place.
Speaker 2:Pain is often the doorway to these kind of deeper reaches of the soul, and not everybody goes there. Catholic theologians have this way of thinking about spiritual development that they'll talk about. There's a first half of life and a second half of life, and in the first half of life, kind of faith, it's really all about, you know, building a name for yourself, figuring out who you are, figuring out who God is, figuring out what your beliefs are and all that good stuff, figuring out who God is, figuring out what your beliefs are and all that good stuff. But then in your second half of life, everything that you've been gathering up to sort of prop yourself up, you realize I really need to now spend the second half of my life emptying all this out. Typically, what moves people from first half of life faith into second half of life?
Speaker 2:Faith is the experience of some great pain, and so I would say sometimes we resist doing that work and if we resist it, life has a way of pushing us into it anyways. But when you get pushed through the doorway because of pain, not everybody like goes through and grows. Some people will actually double down. They'll go back harder on their tribal theology, the faith that they were handed in their childhood. They will double down. Others will just disbelieve. I'm not going to do the work of trying to understand this from the ground up, so I'm just done with it. But if you'll let it, pain will disappoint you into depth of trying to understand this from the ground up, so I'm just I'm done with it. But if you'll let it, pain will disappoint you into depth. And actually I think that that's been one of the greatest gifts of my life is seeing the way that God redeems pain and pain then becomes this really, really powerful doorway through which he's able to breathe new life into the world how, like what did you?
Speaker 1:what did you have to relearn, I guess? Or what, if you want to share? Or like how, those passages that you talked about about prayer, how have you understood those now?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So for starters, I've come to understand the Bible as it's a story, and it's a story that's headed somewhere. It's a story that's got a point and it's a story that's an invitation to participate in where God is moving everything right. And because we get to participate, we also get to choose not to participate. So God, for whatever reason, is carrying out his good purposes through the agency and the will of people who either get on board or don't, and when they don't, it actually frustrates God's will, like gets in the way of it right. So for me it was like, okay, prayer is not a gumball machine where I just do the right things, put in my quarter, twist the dial and out comes the thing that I was hoping for. Prayer is actually about me learning to yield to what it is that God wants, right. So I grew up with this idea that prayer was primarily about me expressing my feelings.
Speaker 2:But actually the Hebrew people the way that they learned to pray was by praying the Psalms, literally memorizing the Psalms. So if you look at Job's prayer in the belly of the fish in the book of Job, every single line of his prayer is stolen from the Psalms and it's not an original prayer. He's borrowed from the Psalms and weaved together this prayer, but what's interesting is that he prays a prayer from the Psalms that is totally at odds with his situation. You would expect him, with his back against an intestinal wall, that he is going to pray a prayer of lament, but instead he prays Psalms that are a prayer of thanksgiving. So he prays at a way that is totally at odds with his feelings. And I think this is the wisdom of Jewish prayer is we don't pray in order to express what we feel. We pray God's words in order to feel what God's words express. Right, so it's about yielding what it is that I want to what it is God wants. Now that doesn't mean that I don't pray for, you know, someone to be healed, or for God to, you know, help us financially. Of course I still pray those things and of course I still think God cares about that stuff. But there is this other dimension of reality. That's not about me getting my way, but about this big story that God's unfolding and how I've been invited to be a part of it. So that was a big part of me rethinking prayer. Honestly. Another big part of it was thinking about the problem of evil. So you know God, if you are in control, why would you let my brother die?
Speaker 2:But then, when you go back into the story of the scriptures and you look at it in its context, oh my gosh, some really disturbing stuff about evil starts to show up. There is this group in the Hebrew scriptures and you can find it in several passages called the divine council, and this is kind of like God's heavenly courtroom, and these are all these supernatural beings, the Elohim, the sons of God, and it's as though God has delegated authority to these supernatural beings to help him rule the earth right. And those beings have this free will to get on board and do it God's way or go their own way. And so, like in the book of Daniel, chapter 10, daniel's praying, and three weeks go by and this angel shows up and says hey, I was dispatched to you the minute you started praying, but I actually did battle with the prince of Persia. He resisted me for three weeks and it's taken me three weeks to get here.
Speaker 2:And so for me that was like, okay, hold up, hold up, hold up. What if? What if? God's intent, of course, was to answer my prayer and keep my brother safe, but because we live in a world where God has allowed us to exercise freedom, where he has allowed even these supernatural beings to exercise freedom, and they fight against it, that, like death, exists. So it's not God who let that happen, it's evil at work. And so for me it was just like oh okay, I don't have to lay this at the feet of God and say this is your fault. Actually, when I understand the story of scripture, it's much more complex, it makes more sense, and it helps me wrestle with some of these like deeper, deeper issues. Does that make sense? Well, there was a lot there.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. No, it was so good, it's so interesting. Last Saturday, david was asking about, like, the difference of seraphim, cherubims and seraphims and angels. They seem to be three different kinds, yep, and I was like, oh my, like, oh, this is a lot buddy. So I'm doing all this research and I came across the Bible Project, which I think you mentioned, and we're in the middle of watching their little series on that because I was like I love that he has questions. I honestly don't always have the answers because it's just a lot and they probably don't have all the answers either. Right, and just remembering, remembering that as well. Yeah, it's just so funny you brought that up, cause I was like, yeah, we're actually watching that little series on that. Yeah, so would you say that that God is what? What is that Christian word that we use for God that says that he's in control of everything? That, like, he either says it can happen or he allows it to happen, or am I making any sense? Uh, yeah, I.
Speaker 2:I understand what you're saying. Yeah, for whatever reason, god in his wisdom has decided to carry out his purposes in partnership with people and also, if you get into the weeds of the divine council in the Hebrew scriptures, he's decided to carry out his purposes in partnership with these Elohim, these supernatural beings. So I don't know how that all plays out, like god is going to bring about god's purposes but, for whatever reason, he does it in partnership with us and where, like his will and way ends and our free choices play into I. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't know the details of how that works, but I know that like that's sort of how it works in all of the relationships that that I have in my own life. Like there is this I'm like when I think about my children, like I'm your dad, but I also recognize that I can't control you. Like, in order for us to have a loving, flourishing family, you have to, as a child, learn to want what is right for yourself.
Speaker 1:Is this coming together of me exercising authority and control as the dad, but also leaving room for freedom so that it's their choice, right, yeah, yeah. What would you say to someone who is afraid, like maybe they heard something just in what you're saying and they're like oh, I've never heard this or that sounds too scary to dive into. Or you know, I grew up Catholic and, like you, I'm so grateful for, for the faith that my parents instilled in me. I have a sense stop practicing Catholicism, but that's scary. Right To do something different than you're comfortable with, wanting to be respectful of your family and your, what you were brought up in. But what would you say to someone that's like what? What if I, what if my things change? What if that means that what I really thought was so important, god's like, it actually isn't? But this is really important.
Speaker 1:But that's scary right, I mean it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, human. I mean, we don't like change, we like to get things sorted out and cement them in place. But you know, here's the problem with that Human beings are not static creatures, we're dynamic creatures. Change is expected, change is assumed. It is the nature of reality. My marriage is different today than it was 20 years ago. My relationships are different today than they are 20.
Speaker 2:I am I think I even saw a study once that, like your, the cells in your body, they change so frequently that basically every seven years you are a totally new person at the cellular level. So we are, we are constantly changing, and to sort of dig your heels in and say, well, I don't like that, I understand it, but at some level it's also kind of like a refusal to live in reality. Change is just the nature of the world that we inhabit. You really then have this invitation to. What would it look like to embrace that? And here's a metaphor that's been really, really helpful for me. I remember seeing this when I read the Chronicles of Narnia, and in the very last book. You know, the people go through the doorway and they're in this like new creation, this new heaven, this new Narnia, and they keep being invited further up and further in, further up come, further up and further in. There's more, it's better, and the deeper they go on the journey, the bigger Narnia becomes, the more real it becomes, the more glorious it becomes, and that really is what my experience of faith, the Bible and God have been like. So there's a famous picture if you can picture it in your mind of the Grand Tetons in the distance, and in the foreground of this picture there's this cabin. It's really beautiful, it's like a rustic picture.
Speaker 2:But imagine that you and I are on a hike and we're walking towards the Tetons and from 10 miles away we can look at that mountain range and say, oh yeah, here's what it looks like the journey is going to require. We're going to have to go east over there. Obviously we're going to have to scale up there, and then we're going to have to go left there and then we're going to have to backtrack a little bit and then we can go north. It all seems so clear. But the deeper into the journey you get, the bigger the mountain becomes, the more real it becomes, and as you get into it you start to realize, ah, we couldn't see this from back there and actually we don't have to go this way. We actually need to go this way and, in fact, the only way the journey can continue is if we are willing to rethink the things that were so certain back there and this, I think, is what holds a lot of people back in continuing to mature and grow in their faith is this refusal to rethink.
Speaker 2:And, by the way, that is what the word repent means in Greek, metanoeo it is to change your mind. And I don't think that we repent just once, because, yes, you repent, you give your allegiance to Jesus Christ, but then you give yourself to this life of discipleship, which is all about what the Apostle Paul calls taking on the mind of Christ. So you are literally daily trying to change your mind in order to see things the way that Jesus saw them, and if that is the kind of life you say yes to, oh man, buckle up, because you are going to be doing a lot of changing.
Speaker 1:What would you say to someone who does know a lot about the Bible and they get frustrated when they hear things that aren't quite biblical? And I'm sure you get this all the time because you are so knowledgeable in the Bible. How do you, I guess, be humble? But also, are there times when you can talk with someone, or is it just kind of seeing how that relationship is?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, for one, like you said, humility. I think is is so crucial and I think it's actually a test of true wisdom Because, like I said, real wisdom is knowing just how much you don't know, not walking around saying, look at it, look at how much I know you know, not walking around pointing out all the ways people are wrong. And also, another thing that has been really it's just a thought that's always been in my mind when this comes up is you know, there was a stage on the journey where that way of thinking or that way of making sense of things was really helpful for me. And it could be that there are people right now for whom that way of thinking is really helpful. And it's the first part of the journey. And I don't even like that language, because that even sounds like oh, I'm, you know, further along than you and one day you'll be where I'm at. I don't like that, but it is. You know, like we need all kinds of churches, we need all kinds of teaching. I think we need every voice making sense of the text, twisting the gem, helping us look at it from different angles. So you know, there's that. But yeah, I do think that there is like this and this is what I love about context so much is when you can come to the Bible and ask the question not what do I think or what does this mean for me, but what did this mean for them then? Oh gosh, that just creates such new and interesting and exciting ways to think about the text and ways in.
Speaker 2:But, as you've said, not everybody's up for that. It's not for everyone, it really isn't. I grew up in a very anti-intellectual church. My parents made jokes about people who had PhDs and they called seminary cemetery, and I'm sure they hated it. When I went, Because in their mind, people who get smart go crazy, they go off the deep end, and they would tell me you went to college and you became liberal. I'm like, no, I didn't. Just because I went to school doesn't make me liberal, but so there is some fear of that. But it's so worth the journey. It's so worth the journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and you have been kind of walking us through some questions that Chris and I had, and you were like, hey, maybe look at it this way, and you've given us so many tools and and books. So thank you for being gracious with us, as we're kind of always learning, and you do that so well, though. Instead of being like how could you do that so well, though, instead of being like how could you think that you're such an idiot?
Speaker 1:or like you know, just uh well, you know, this is what I thought. This is kind of what I think now. This book helped me and like we can always still be friends even if we end up staying on different sides of this question. So, um, I think that you're gifted in that well.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I've had some really good mentors along the way who modeled that really well.
Speaker 1:So we talked about knowing a lot about the Bible and learning, and I think when I was growing up it was don't talk about religion, don't talk about politics. At least that's kind of how the world kind of seemed to me. That's kind of how the world kind of seemed to me. And now it feels like throw yourself into talking and telling everybody about your politics and your religion and don't worry if it hurts people.
Speaker 1:I think it was kind of what I was saying with your question of like, if you have a different thought about the Bible than someone else, maybe how do you? I think you can talk about it. I mean, like you said, we've talked about it and you've been like, hey, maybe look at this. So I'm not saying you can't talk about it, but I feel like from when I grew up of don't talk about politics or religion to now we're on the other spectrum of almost like just throw it all out there and be mean to each other. And you know, we just came through a new president coming into office and there's so much tension and oh, it's kind of a difficult spot to live in, right? What would you say to people as we're?
Speaker 2:What would you say to people as we're diving into religion and tribal, that I've ever seen in the world and I definitely felt it as a pastor A lot of pressure to say our thing, like quote our people, don't quote the wrong person, don't read the wrong books. So there is a lot of pressure to pick your side and you know and go on the attack. And I think it's just helpful to remember. You know, first and foremost, if you are a follower of Jesus, a follower of Jesus, your primary citizenship is in heaven. Our primary citizenship is as apprentices to Jesus, disciples of his way and kind of. The core of that is love God and love others. And how do you love God? Well, you do it by loving others.
Speaker 2:So, unfortunately, the truth about like a polarized society and a tribal society is that it is much easier to build community with people when you share a common enemy. And you see this all over, actually, in the New Testament moments where the Pharisees and the Herodians will team up together to eliminate Jesus. Well, the Herodians were all about keeping Herod and Rome in power and the Pharisees kind of had this bent of like revolution, and so they're diametrically opposed but they come into league together to eliminate Jesus. Or you've got Herod, antipas and Pontius Pilate, who they're not friends, they're kind of enemies, but they come together around Jesus's trial and crucifixion and the text says that they became friends from that moment onward. And so there is a seduction right now to build community around common enemies and that is so antithetical to the kingdom of God. So just to be aware of that I think is huge, and you know the text will talk in all kinds of ways about you know, honor the authorities, right. Pray for your leaders. It's God who puts these leaders in place positions and situations where the rulers and authorities over them put themselves in a place where they're making a claim on God's place, right.
Speaker 2:So when Babylon wants to set up a statue and, like you know, daniel and all your friends, you're going to bow down and you're going to worship the statue and Daniel's like no, well, daniel works for the government, he has a Babylonian name, but he draws the line. And you see that same kind of thing in the New Testament where man, these followers of Jesus, they care about their communities, they care about their government, they're going to pray, they're going to support, they're going to work, they're going to invest, but there will be these moments where they have to play the role and again I'm getting this language from the Bible project about Daniel and even about, you know, some of the followers of Jesus in the New Testament where they're loyal subversives. I mean, peter says to the religious leaders in the book of Acts we have to obey God, not men. We have to obey God, not people.
Speaker 2:And when people put themselves in positions to make claims that well, that's God's territory, that's where you kind of have to draw the line and say I don't think so. That's a kind of idolatry that you know needs to be named and challenged and confronted. So, on the whole, I think I actually think Christians have this like really powerful opportunity right now to love others really well by being some of those peaceable voices that you can talk to, and they're not going to treat you as an enemy because you know you think this way, or cast you aside because you think this way. They're going to stay engaged.
Speaker 1:So you might say that one of our, one of the things that we can do, is to try not to get into like kind of tribes, as you called them, and and just have conversations with people and not.
Speaker 2:Yeah I mean, go all the way back to genesis 12, when god chooses abraham and makes it. You know he's going to make a covenant with abraham. He's going to bless all of the world through abraham. The whole idea about that that is so revolutionary is that tribes exist for the benefit of themselves, and what God does by choosing Abraham and giving his family this mission to bless the whole world, is he basically says hey, you are going to be a tribe that exists for the blessing and benefit of all other tribes. So, yeah, resist that temptation to get sucked into the polarization. But also remember that, as citizens of the kingdom of heaven, like, why am I here? Well, I am here to bless everyone. Well, I am here to bless everyone, so how can I be a blessing in this conversation?
Speaker 1:How can I bless this person, even if they're my enemy, which is one of Jesus's teachings that's so challenging in the New Testament? Yeah, yeah, well, this has been a great conversation.
Speaker 2:Well, as we wrap up, this might be a hard question for you what is your favorite Bible verse or story? Yeah, that is a hard question because I feel like it's sort of like asking a cat lady which cat is your favorite?
Speaker 1:As a Bible teacher.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, the truth is and this is a frustrating answer to your question but my favorite one is, whatever one I happen to be working on at the moment, because of that discovery that, oh, there's always something new. You know, like yesterday I got a text message from somebody asking me a question about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, and so I literally just spent 10 minutes. I looked at two commentaries, sat with the verse for a second and sent a reply back and I saw something I've never seen before. That totally transformed that story for me and I'm like I love this passage and I want to find a way to teach on this in the next, you know, week or two. So that's whatever what I'm working on.
Speaker 2:But I would say if there is a center of gravity over the years, it's been the Sermon on the Mount. Like if you want to understand the core, the curriculum for what it means to be a disciple of Jesus and to become like him, the Sermon on the Mount is the heart and soul. And so, even as a pastor, I just made this commitment we will go, verse by verse, through the Sermon on the Mount once every five years. It's that important, it's like true north. You just got to keep coming back to it and letting it reorient you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's one that you'd have to get into context, though, right I yeah?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you have a teaching on that one?
Speaker 2:On the Sermon on the Mount. Yeah, yes, many. I think the one that was most enlightening for me has to do with Jesus's teachings on nonviolence, and so especially the whole turn the other cheek thing. So right in the ancient world, you, you eat and do business with your, your right hand, like we sign documents, we shake hands, all that kind of stuff. You do private bathroom stuff with your left hand, so you don't use your left hand.
Speaker 2:And Jesus says if somebody strikes you on the right cheek, well, if I'm standing in front of you and I don't use my left hand in this culture and I strike you with my right hand on your right cheek, it's a backhand right. And here's the thing you have to understand about the Mediterranean world and the ancient Near East, especially Greco-Roman culture, is that it is highly, highly stratified, probably the most stratified society history has ever seen. It's all about like a social hierarchy and where you fall on the hierarchy, and so the blow of a backhand is the blow of somebody who's higher than you on the social hierarchy. And so what Jesus basically says is all right, let them take the blow, absorb the blow. Don't't respond with evil, don't respond by hitting them back. Turn to them your other cheek. Well, if I've just struck you with my right hand and you turn your other cheek to me, the most natural thing in the world is going to be for me to do what Left hand Right Like to, to hit you with an open hand this time, this way it's. It would be super awkward for me to kind of have to like, come around this way and try, and you know so.
Speaker 2:The point is that if somebody strikes you this way, what they've just communicated to everybody watching is that you are my equal. So what Jesus is really getting at is a way to deal with violence that is creative and throws it back on its heels. So you absorb the violence that's done to you. You refuse to respond in kind. You refuse to respond in kind.
Speaker 2:You surprise it with creative grace or creative response that, at the very same moment, exposes it for the sham that it is, and that, to me, is the genius of the Jesus way. I mean, it's what Martin Luther King Jr did with nonviolent action. It's what Gandhi did with nonviolent action. They took Jesus's teachings and put them into practice in a way that totally transformed the world, and to me that one is like okay, it's always in my mind and I didn't realize it when I put this teaching together at the time but the the acronym absorb, refuse, surprise, expose, arse right, and so you know my thought is you know, when somebody cuts me off in traffic and I just like this, anger, absorb, refuse, surprise, expose, what does it look like to not respond with anger but to surprise this with creative grace when you know there's conflict with another person? Absorb, refuse, surprise, expose. That teaching has been so incredibly helpful for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had heard it that then they would. They would have to do their left hand and they would like kind of stop because that would be so terrible, because that was the one they used for their bathroom.
Speaker 2:Okay, See, I've never heard that, but like from what, from what? Everything that I've read, you just you, pretty much this was just reserved for you, Okay.
Speaker 1:So it's kind of the same thought, though, right, it's like oh, I'm coming at, like what? Oh?
Speaker 2:yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:I'm learning so much. What could you? Could you tell us about what you were talking about? This, like little nugget you got about Lazarus and the.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean the person's question's question was hey, if it's a parable, why does jesus name the, the poor beggar?
Speaker 2:lazarus right and um, so parables they're. Have you ever been telling somebody a story and you're trying to like get the point across and they keep interrupting you and asking detailed questions and they're like, well, wait, but were the shoes red or were they blue? And you finally you get upset and you're like the color of the shoes is not the point. The point is that there were shoes. Sometimes parables work that way where when we get into too much, like, well, what does this symbolize and how do we draw parallels? Doing that too much can make more of the parable than is there. So it could be that Lazarus, who knows why there is no, you know meaning to why. But, as we've been discussing, the Jewish people believe that you never get to the bottom of the bible, so they delighted to savor and meditate and wrestle with and find new insights, new spiritual insights, and I think we're called to do the same thing, right? So I started looking into the story and here's the interesting contextual nugget. That story about the rich man and Lazarus is a really well-known folk tale in the ancient world and Jesus was not the first person to tell this story. In fact, when he started to tell the parable, his listeners would have been like oh, I know this story, I've heard this before, but what would have made the record player screech to a halt for them is that Jesus changes the detail, because in the ancient folktale version of that story the rich person is allowed to send a message back from Hades, but in Jesus's version of the story version of the story he's not. And the reason he's not is if your family has not listened to Moses and the prophets, they won't believe a word that comes back from the dead. And here's the interesting thing Lazarus in Hebrew is a shortened version of the name Eleazar, which means God helps, and I think kind of the point of the story is God has been helping your family through Moses and the prophets, and if they have said no to that help over and over and over and over again, over and over and, over and over again, at what point do you become unable to receive help, even when it's a word from the dead, right? So there is this idea that if you say no and you see this actually even in the story of Exodus, with a hardening of Pharaoh's heart if you make a choice over and over and over and over and over again, you become incapable of making another choice, which is why our habits are so, so powerful.
Speaker 2:But I think that's kind of the nugget. The aha is like no, no, no, I've been giving you help. They've had help. It's been there all along in Moses and the prophets and they turned a deaf ear to it. You think a word from the dead is going to get them to believe? No, and that is, I think, so true to how the human heart works. We think that if I just have more information, if I just had a little more proof, if I just had a sign, well then I'd believe. But actually what I see over and over again is that we have a tendency to interpret the data in a way that just rubber stamps our previously held beliefs.
Speaker 1:That's good. What are you grateful for?
Speaker 2:oh man, there's so much. I feel like god has been especially kind to me this last year with a couple of new friendships, male friendships. You know, as a pastor for 20 years and pastoring is really lonely and leading is really lonely, and so just to have a couple male friendships just has felt like a breath of fresh air and God's real kindness. And then I would say my marriage. My wife Trisha and I. We've been married for 22,.
Speaker 2:Coming up on 23 years and again being a pastor, I mean it almost. Our marriage almost didn't survive planting a church, and so to be able now to look at what we have together, it just feels like such grace that we were able to move through really, really hard things and we have this beautiful relationship. And then this one is kind of cheesy, but we have a fireplace. We bought a new home about a year ago and we have a fireplace and we are fire people. And even in the age of screenagers, when you put a fire in the fireplace, my children will drop their screens and they're like a moth to the flame. And so if I were to take the camera downstairs right now, you would see we have our lazy boy chairs pulled right up to the front of the fireplace and it's been really cold here, and so we've had fires going nonstop, and so pretty much every night around nine o'clock, my entire family is within like a five foot radius of each other, just sitting in front of the fire, and it just makes my heart so happy.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love it. We have a fireplace place too that we use all the time during the winter, so that's really funny. What kindness have you received in the last week, or what kindness have you given?
Speaker 2:I'm trying to think of something really profound for you. No, it's, you know it's, it's little stuff and that's that's, I think, is the great lie. Is that profound equals what faithfulness really is? And that's not true. Faithfulness is like these little daily, little daily kindnesses. And, by the way, that word kindness shows up in the list of the fruit of the spirit In Greek, I think it's krestotes.
Speaker 2:It literally means useful. So to be kind is to be useful and I just love this. Like as a pastor I saw this over and over again where you know, when somebody goes through something hard, they'll start to get the calls and the texts. If you need anything, just let me know, right, it puts the burden on the work of anticipating what they need and offer it. So right, the mom who comes home from the hospital and she's got her baby and she gets a text message from a friend that says if you need anything, let us know. Well, that's really nice, thank you, that's very nice of you. If you need anything, let us know. Well, that's really nice, thank you, that's very nice of you.
Speaker 2:But kindness is the friend that comes over and says all right, here are three meals, put them in the freezer. All you got to do is warm them up. Give me that baby. You go, lay down and take a nap. I'm going to feed this baby, I'm going to get this baby burped, I'll put her down for a nap. You go rest. And, by the way, my husband's coming by on Thursday to mow the lawn, so you guys don't have to think about it. That is kindness. And right here on the window ledge in front of me, my daughter, my oldest daughter. She ran into Starbucks yesterday. She brought me back a cappuccino. She knew I was up here working, been writing for like six hours straight and it's just this little thing of like hey, I see you, I value you. Here's this and I just I love that you asked the question, because gratitude begets gratitude and when you're, when your mind is focused on what you have, you just start to see what you have everywhere.
Speaker 1:Well and I also ask it because, like you were saying, I think that we have, in general, come up with this lie that in order to do something kind, we have to do something crazy big. And then that makes us actually off the hook because, oh well, I can't do that. I can't give someone a new car, I can't pay for someone's mortgage, so I guess I don't have to do anything, or that it doesn't matter. And and this is the point of that question is that these small things are what are what matters? When you were saying that, I was thinking we had an ectopic pregnancy between David and Rachel, the thing that I mean, people brought meals and and I will always be thankful for that and I we didn't ask for them, because you're in such sorrow that you you can't ask. Like I don't know what I need. I like I need my baby, but that's not happening, Right?
Speaker 1:And then someone, this one lady, I actually like didn't know her very well and she was older and she came over and she literally did my laundry while I was just in bed. You know, I had to be in bed and I would never have asked her for that. I mean, that is that that's personal right. It's like maybe my mom, I would say, yeah, can you do the laundry. But this woman that I barely knew came over and I was just she like came over, she's like I'm just gonna be here, I'm gonna take care of David, you rest. And then I got up and there was laundry done and I was like what, like you did what? Like wow, like that has been years and I still remember how loving that was and maybe she doesn't even remember, Maybe she, you know, because it's not really a big thing, but it is right.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh see, this is my wife's superpower is noticing. It's such a noticer. She's like this you could be having a conversation with her and you would throw out an offhand comment about how you love peppermint mochas. Well, six weeks could go by and one day she will notice that you're having a rough day and you'll leave your desk to go to a meeting and you'll come back and there's a peppermint mocha at your chair and you say, oh my gosh, I love peppermint mochas. How did you know? And she would say because you told me and you're like wait, no, I didn't. Yeah, six weeks ago, and it's just this little like. I saw you, I saw you and it's just that small stuff.
Speaker 2:I to say you know, we're obsessed with big. God has big plans for your life. We're asking god to move in a big way. I love the idea that god has tiny plans for our life, that, um, we're asking him to show up in really, really small ways and we actually can be doing that on a daily basis. I love that. That thought, that thought, is so compelling.
Speaker 1:Well, brad, thank you, I have I. This episode might've just been for me, but we will get it out to everybody.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, I hope it. I hope it doesn't seem too like academic and too heady, cause that's the like, that's the danger sometimes, right, right.
Speaker 1:No, no, it was wonderful and obviously I'll link you walking the text. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your wisdom and your stories and sharing with us and at Ordinary People Extraordinary Things. Your story is his glory. Wow, this podcast with Brad Nelson was jam-packed. I have listened to it already about four times during the editing process and I'm going to have to listen to it some more to keep on getting these little nuggets. One thing that just really really stands out to me was that God has tiny plans for your life, and I really like that. The other one that stood out to me is to be kind is to be useful. I can't wait to hear how this podcast has impacted you and, as always, thanks for listening, thanks for sharing, and we'll see you back in two weeks.