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Ordinary People Extraordinary Things
113. Why Church Hurt Happens & How We Heal Together with Scott Martin
A warm note of gratitude sets the stage for a frank, grace-filled conversation about church hurt...what it is, what it isn’t, and how we heal without denying hard truths. We welcome Scott Martin, who opens up about the loneliness of leadership, the danger of pedestal culture, and the quiet ways identity drift turns pastors into performers. Scott draws a clear line between abuses of authority and the everyday bumps of human community, then shows how clarity and humility can prevent small missteps from becoming public meltdowns.
We unpack what it means to be “in Christ,” not as a religious add-on but a core identity that steadies us when roles change and criticism cuts deep. That identity reframes expectations: pastors are guides, not saviors; congregants are partners, not consumers. Together we explore the hard balance of grace and truth—naming sin, refusing gossip, practicing accountability, and still choosing patient love. With COVID-era tensions and social media pressures as backdrop, Scott makes a compelling case for slow, honest leadership that admits “I don’t know” and keeps moving one faithful step at a time.
The heart of our podcast lands here: while the church can wound us, God heals us through the church. We consider the church as the bride of Christ and how our words either honor or tear at that bond. Unity becomes more than a slogan; it’s the everyday discipline that gives our witness credibility. If you’ve been hurt by leaders or by a community that should have protected you, we see you. Receive our sincere apology and an invitation to take one small, safe step back toward people who can walk with you.
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It's Thanksgiving week, and I'm so thankful for you. Ordinary People Extraordinary Things Podcast would not be here without you. With a heart of thankfulness, I want to give you a couple of quick stats. We celebrated our four-year anniversary this month of over 14,000 downloads in 113 countries. The number one downloaded country is the United States. But Singapore is our second most downloaded country. I am praying you practice even more gratefulness this season, and I am truly grateful for you. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for sharing. Now let's get started with Scott Martin. Welcome to Ordinary People Extraordinary Things. I'm so excited to have Scott on. Scott, thanks for being on the podcast.
Scott Martin:Hey, it's my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me to come on and for a chance to talk.
Nancy Bruscher:Yeah, I'm looking forward to our conversation. Yeah, me too. If people don't know who you are, can you give three words or phrases to describe yourself?
Scott Martin:Yes. So uh three words, I would describe myself as uh playful, studious, and stubborn. So those are I like to have fun and sometimes I probably have too much fun because I try to have fun with everything. Um studious, I'm I like school. Uh I like to study, I like to learn, I like to read. Uh, I tend to be a curious person, like I want to understand things, and uh I could be stubborn. Ask anyone close to me, ask my family. Sometimes that's a good thing, and sometimes it's a super frustrating thing.
Nancy Bruscher:Yeah. I think almost all characteristics can be good and bad, right? I mean, there's some that aren't, but when I think of it, it's just kind of how how you play along the line of um Yeah, definitely for sure.
Scott Martin:And stubbornness, I think, runs in my family. I think it's uh not my immediate family. Well, yeah, like I got it from my dad. So, you know, it's a it's a male hereditary trait in my family.
Nancy Bruscher:And what about studious? Do you love studying probably obviously the Bible since you're a pastor, but are there other things you love to study?
Scott Martin:A little bit. Like I'll tell sometimes it's just things that like we're doing as a family. Like maybe we're going on vacation, it's like we're going to Yellowstone. It's like, oh, I want to learn about Yellowstone. Or um, sometimes it's things my kids will get into. Like um, my son, especially, like, we'll do deep dives. Like when he was younger, we got way into like comic books and Marvel. And so we de dive deep dive deep, not into just like the movies, but all the con everything behind it. So, I mean, yeah, I do have my my primary interest for like theology and ministry and things like that, Bible scripture, but all kinds of stuff, really.
Nancy Bruscher:So you've gotten like me, like, I know more about Pokemon than I really care to know about because my son's into Pokemon, but yeah.
Scott Martin:Exactly. Yeah, there's things that I never knew about all these superheroes and comic books, and you know, there's the stuff you you see in movies, but then there's the ongoing story for the last 40 years or however long they've been heroes. So, but it's fun. I find it interesting.
Nancy Bruscher:That's awesome. Well, we're gonna talk about, I guess we'll just use the word church hurt because that is a common phrase, but I want to go ahead and pray because I want people to hear our hearts on it. I think we're on the same page about like we want to talk about this. It's an important thing to talk about because that word, that phrase is out there. But I we also know that there are people that have truly, truly been hurt by people in the church. And we want to make sure that we're that they're hearing like our hearts behind it, if that makes sense. Yeah. Perfect. Let's pray. God, thank you so much for this time together. We give it to you, God. Scott and I probably both have things that we think we're going to say. We've maybe thought about some things, but God, we're gonna just give that all to you. Help us to have our words be your words. Help that any miss sayings that we say, that people will will not hear that, that they'll hear grace, that they'll hear truth and love and you through this conversation, God. And anyone who's been hurt by people, have that be any people, right? This could bring up a lot of emotions for anyone, God. And we just ask that you are there with them as they listen to this podcast. Help us to not just stay in the hurt, but learn how to come out of it or learn how to um just grow from it, God. And so that's why we always do this at Ordinary People, extraordinary things, is we want to land on hope. We want to land on you. So have this podcast glorify you. Amen.
Scott Martin:Amen.
Nancy Bruscher:So this fun topic.
Scott Martin:It's an easy one.
Nancy Bruscher:Yeah, like let's just breeze through it. I have actually, this is one that I I've really gone to scripture on. I've been really praying about it because, like I said, it I want this to be glorifying. I don't want this just to be like, well, let's just put people down or let's just tell our stories or anything like that. But also we know that this is the world that we live in. And so I don't also want to just gloss over something that probably everyone who's been in a church, just like if you've been in any relationship at any time, you've been hurt by people, right? And so, but there is this phrase that people in the church and out of the church know, and it's church hurt. So, what do you think that phrase means, maybe to people in the church or maybe outside the church? Do you think that people are thinking the same definition?
Scott Martin:Yeah, um, that's a that's a really good question. And I think not always. Um, I mean, church hurt, if you just take the basic definition, could be any hurt you experience inside the church. But generally, when people use it, I hear them refer to one of two things. Um, the first and most common, I think, is specifically hurt from church leadership. So, and again, depending on your denomination or church structure, that could be staff members, elders, board members, sometimes even key volunteer leaders. Um, and it's hurt that is almost like an abuse of power, kind of that that this person was, and in most cases, a trusted person. Like I trusted you as my pastor, my leader, my shepherd, and you betrayed that in whatever way you betrayed that. That's the first way I hear it used. I think the second most common way is more of a general where someone feels, usually for for some situation in their life, they feel rejected by the larger church. So maybe they went through something, could be uh like a divorce or something like that. And it's like I just felt rejected by the church at large. Um, generally, this is not always true, but like when when congregation members, when they disagree, I guess you could call that church hurt, but I don't most often hear people refer it to that. Usually, again, like I said, it's one of the not always, not always. And that's my experience, maybe yours is different, um, but it's from a leadership or just an overall, I felt rejected by the church at large.
Nancy Bruscher:Okay, that's good to, yeah, that's good to know where you where you've seen that. How do you think that this hurts people who are not in the church? If they have this common phrase that we see, do you think that's hurting people from wanting to be a part of the church?
Scott Martin:Yeah, I'm I mean, I do think it really does because you know, anytime whatever the group is, you can pick whatever group. If you hear something bad about the church or the this group, hey, this group is whatever, selfish, manipulative. It makes you not want to do that. And I think the term church hurt, I want to be careful when I say this. And so I hope I hope you'll hear my heart on this. I feel sometimes like we use it kind of like we use the word trauma, that I'm really grateful that we live in a culture that recognizes trauma. Because I think for a long time we just didn't. We just like, oh, you're fine, get over it, like walk it off, you're gonna you're gonna be okay. But now that we recognize that, like, no, there's people have experienced real trauma and that does things to you. I think that's I think that's healthy. I do think sometimes as people we overuse that and we'll say things like, oh, this was this was trauma. And it's like, well, no, it wasn't good, but it wasn't necessarily trauma. And I kind of feel the same way with church hurt, that like I don't want to deny that there are some people within the church that have done some horrific things. There just are. They have abused their power, um, they've manipulated people, and that's the stuff I need to think. I I think sometimes we need to separate from just we're we're human beings. Because like, yeah, I I am I'm a pastor, I'm a pastor to church, and I understand that comes with a certain amount of responsibility and and and and trust. But I also think there's a difference between me as a person, Scott, I let you down, and me as a pastor, I literally abused my my role. Because like if you know anyone for long enough, like I'm gonna let you down. Like if you know me long enough in some way or another, and it could be something little like, you know, I took your parking spot in the parking lot. Like you and I were like maybe I was a jerk about it, maybe I cut you off. But that wouldn't be like church hurt. That would just be, oh, Scott could be selfish sometimes. And whereas church hurt, I think, is is really no, in my position as a pastor, I manipulated that and I caused real damage. And and also even to the other one where it's like, hey, the church in general kind of turned his back on me, that does happen. I mean, I've seen it happen, but I've also seen sometimes where where maybe one person was mean to you, and then we spread that out, just blame the whole church. And so I think it's a real thing. Like, I don't I I I hope I'm making that clear. Like, I think church church hurt is real, but I also think we need to be careful between like what is actually church hurt and what is hey, this is one human who who messed up and was mean or was rude or or you know, but they're one, they're not representative of the entire body of Christ. And two, this wasn't a case of a pastor and elder actually misusing their authority in someone's life, if that makes sense at all.
Nancy Bruscher:Yeah, it does. It does. And I don't I don't want to get into like the nitty-gritty of things, but have you been said that you caused that to someone, or that that you have felt that way, or have you kind of been able to take take what you just said and said, you know, that's like more of a one-on-one, or you were able to see the grace, or you know, because obviously you've been pastoring for a long time. You have been hurt by people, right? Because that's it's unfortunately just how we are as humans. I think I want to get into this of like, why did God choose us? What why? Why? Like, we are all so broken. Like, even when we're like at our best, I'm doing air quotes for anyone listening, like, we're still so broken. So it's like, so why did God use the church, his bride, for his plan for restoration, right? Like that's mind-boggling to me. And sometimes I'm like, really, God, this is what you came up with. But do you have any thoughts on that?
Scott Martin:Yeah, you said something there, though, that you and I talked about it earlier, but it is a little interesting that I think there's another side of church hurt, and and I don't I don't want to look at this like I'm trying to compare it because I'm not, but there is another side of church hurt that I think sometimes church leaders experience where they feel hurt by the congregation. Like I know I've talked about it a little bit, but that was my family's experience during COVID. And so I again, I don't want to get into nitty-gritty, I don't want to blame people, but I think that happens too. I think it was Gene Apple, who's he's a pastor at East Side, a big church in California. I think it was him who said it. I could be wrong, but he said, you know, as as a minister, sometimes, as a pastor, sometimes there's wounds that we have within the church that we may not experience healing from this side of heaven. And it just there is that, because there's a lot that's that's put on church leaders that, and again, it depends on your specific domination. So it could be pastors, could be elders, shepherds, deacons, whatever, but there's a lot that gets put on them that that if we're not careful as churches, we can actually end up wounding leaders because we expect too much from them, we put them on pedestals, we blame them for everything. And so it it does kind of go both ways. There is that, and to your point, it's because we're broken people. Like we're flawed people. The I don't care if you're the pastor, the worship leader, or I don't care if you're an average attender, like everyone in the church is a broken and and flawed person. We don't want to be. And especially I think this is why a lot of a lot of church hurt happens from leadership, is a lot of times pastors, leaders, elders, things like that, because I know your husband was an elder at Southeast over the last couple of years, and I'm sure he probably has his own stories on, I guess, would be both sides of what that looks like. But there's this this desire that like we want to know and we want to be right. And and and it's not always a selfish thing. Sometimes it's just rooted in, you know, I have this responsibility for this church that I'm a part of leading, and and I want to be able to like, this is exactly what we're doing, and this is exactly, but I mean, God scripturally, God leads us one step at a time. And so sometimes, especially when you get into something as crazy as COVID or you get into like some wild situation, I can't stand up here and tell you that. I don't fully know. And even if you narrow it down to like a specific situation, like maybe you're just talking to one person and they're sharing something big in their life, like, hey, this is this trend, and you want to be able to provide clarity. Like, I want to look at you and say, This is what you should do. This is, I don't always know. Like, I'm not God, I'm not the spirit. So, I mean, I think in those moments we can be attentive together, we can discern together, but I think a lot of times it's out of a place of deep insecurity that pastors end up causing hurt. Because like they're trying to just, I'm trying to be clear, I'm trying to be strong, I think this is the right thing to do. And and so, in some ways, it's like this lack of humility that actually leads us to causing hurt and pain and damage because we're trying to project certainty that we don't have, that we don't know, that that that we don't feel. And I think sometimes too, the same thing goes the other way around. Because when I look at COVID, I think a lot of the hurt that was done to my family was through the uncertainty of the congregation. Like you had all the chaos of people like, what do we do? Where do we go? And and you know, we're standing up there like, hey, we're trying to be faithful and we're gonna take this one step at a time. And people were just scared and they were angry and they were afraid. And so that turns to, you know, judgment and attacking. And so the irony of it is I think a lot of it is rooted in our like we wound, like it's the what's the phrase, hurt people, hurt people.
Nancy Bruscher:Yeah.
Scott Martin:Like it's out of our own security, but we hide it because we don't want to come across. Like, I don't want to stand up as a pastor and be like, hey, here we are, and I don't know what we're doing. We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna stay faithful. Right. We're gonna we're gonna stay faithful and we're gonna figure this out together. And but then yeah, then that that begs exactly that question you're talking about is well then God, why is this the instrument that you chose to bank everything on? I mean, that's my friend Jeff he spoke to us last weekend. That's what he said. He goes, There is no plan B.
Nancy Bruscher:There's no plan B. This is it, the church. And you're like, what? Yeah, what some things that I I heard you say really came up as as Chris became a leader, an elder in the church. Um, people came up, and one of the things that they said is leadership is lonely. And then actually, Brad Nelson, he was on my podcast and he said the same thing. He was a pastor for years, and he's like, leader leading is so lonely. And so I just want to kind of put that out there again because I think that sometimes people might look at you, Scott, and be like, oh, like everyone loves him, or everyone hates him, like either one, right? But like, let's say, like, like everyone loves you, but I think that there's still like this, and maybe you're gonna be like, no, I don't feel like that, but there's still like this loneliness that happens because a lot of times people want something from you, or um, they're expecting something from you, or more than you're able to give as a human being. And so that kind of makes it lonely and lonely. And then that that can also become a problem. That can lead to to some of these issues maybe as well.
Scott Martin:Yeah, I think it leads to a lot of them because when you get that lonely, where do you go? If I'm struggling, if I'm hurting, if I'm whatever I got going on, where do I go? Then you don't deal with it and it builds up and it builds up, and then it sometimes leads to epic failures and meltdowns that impact the whole church. I think it is lonely. I think it's very lonely. It's kind of a joke with the staff that when I came, I told them, I was like, I don't, I don't ever have anyone call me Pastor Scott. I just go by Scott. And it's not like I reject that title, and if people use it, I'm not like, don't call me that. But one of the things I've talked about when I've done like ordinations is pastor is what I do. It's not what I am. And I know some people are gonna push back with that and disagree with that. And but let me explain what I mean by that. Like ordination, when someone's ordained, which is the process where the church recognizes you and you officially become a pastor, ordination is a recognition of function. It's hey, God has called you to this, to this vocation, to this duty within the church. But there will be a time when I'm not a pastor, but I'm still Scott, I'm still a child of God, I'm still a part of the kingdom. But for this time, for this season, this is my role within within the church. And so I want to steward that well, but I also don't want that to be my identity. Like my identity has to be that I'm a child of God. And so if tomorrow I am no longer a pastor because I can't be, or whatever, like that can't be that can't be my identity. And so I think a lot of times it's it's true of all people, like we tend to find our identity in what we do. You know, I'm a I'm a teacher, I'm a lawyer, but I think it can be more damaging as a pastor if I find my identity in any church leader, like if I find my core identity in I'm a pastor, I'm an elder, I'm a this, because then if that becomes threatened, like if so, if you feel like, hey, there's people in the church that don't like what I'm saying, there's people that don't like what I'm doing, you take that as a threat, and then you're lonely, you're isolated, this is your identity, you become so I I really do think part of it is pastors, church leaders developing that healthy identity that, hey, this is where God has called me for this season, and I'll serve faithfully as long as this season is. But at the end of the day, this this doesn't define me. Yeah. Like you you take this away from me, and I'm still just as valuable in the church and in the kingdom of God, even if I'm not teaching or or or preaching.
Nancy Bruscher:That's that's actually really profound, Scott. I really, I really appreciate that. And then maybe also if people are listening and they're like, hey, I'm not a pastor, I'm not uh in leadership, but then also maybe realizing that to think of them just as Scott, just as yeah, just as that person too, and not kind of weighing that on extra does that I don't know if I put that correctly.
Scott Martin:Yeah, because I think most of us probably try to find our identity in something external. Sure. Because for a lot of people, it's like, oh, I'm I'm a mom or I'm a dad, or like we said, my job, or I don't know, I'm a runner, or like there's this external thing. But again, what happens if if you can't do that? What happens if you can't run it? What happens when your kids grow up and move out of the house and they're independent? What's left at that point? And and so that's where having that healthy sense of identity of, hey, I'm a child of God. And I think sometimes too, us having that same expectation of other people, like I think it's okay in churches. We tend to, because we're American culture, we tend to like place people on pedestals and we do that with pastors, and that's that's not healthy for a whole lot of reasons. It's not healthy, it's not fair. Um, pastors shouldn't be celebrities, they're pastors. I remember my mentor, he told me, he goes, it has to be enough that you're the pastor of this church. He goes, if you need something more, like I need a national following and I need a a book deal or I need an international podcast or something. He goes, Maybe those things come, they come for some people, but it has to be enough that you're the pastor of a local church because that's that's what God has called you to. And so I think having that sense of identity about ourselves and being okay with that, but also having it for other people. And when it comes to pastors, knowing, like, hey, this person's the pastor here. So yeah, I can go to them for things. I can go to them for for guidance, I can go to them for questions. They may not have all the answers, like they're they're not God. They probably have some kind of training or expertise in scripture, Bible, theology, they can probably be helpful, but they're not going to solve my problems. They're not my savior. Jesus is. Yeah, it's okay to rely on a pastor, to trust a pastor, to go to a pastor in those times of needs. But yeah, I think you have to be careful that you don't put because if you put too much expectation, you will get hurt. The more expectation you have on that person, when they fail you, and they inevitably will, the more it's going to hurt.
Nancy Bruscher:Yeah. And maybe not in like a huge way, right? Like every pastor is not going to have like a huge downfall, like, but you are gonna, we all are going to make mistakes. So then, yes, I totally understand what you're saying. So you said about identity. Would you? I we didn't say we were gonna talk about this at all, but someone who's listening who's like, I don't really know what you mean by identity. All I know is like when I ask you three words or phrases, I say mom, I say podcaster, I say why, child of God, you brought up. Would you say that's kind of like your base identity? Could you explain that a little bit? And like, why would we need more than that, you think?
Scott Martin:Yeah. So in identity, the phrase that I use, and I did not come up with this, the apostle Paul did he uses it all over the New Testament, is in Christ. Like you'll see that phrase all over the place. Like, if anyone is in Christ, they're a new creation, I am I am in Christ. In the New Testament, this is really how the New Testament talks about faith. We we tend to view faith as like something we add on to who we are. So, like, if I'm not a Christian and then I become a Christian, I kind of add on Jesus to everything I already do. Whereas the word that's kind of historically been used that I kind of think is a good word, even though it's been used really badly, is the word conversion. Because to convert is actually to become something different. Like, I'm not just adding this on to what I already do. I'm actually being and I think that's a better picture of the New Testament. Because when you when you convert, you are baptized, which the whole idea behind baptism is to place yourself completely into Jesus. So my identity now becomes that I am in Christ, and I share everything that he shares, his death, his resurrection, all of that. And so I'm always tempted to make other things my identity. Um, I think all of us, like our core identity, is we are made in the image of God. We're children of God. Sin, like when you read through the scriptural story, sin is what scars that image. And so being in Christ is being restored into that original image. But that's the distinction I would make between in Christ and just child of God. All of us are children of God, made in the image of God, but in Christ, we're being restored to that. And so that's always what I want my core identity to be. Like I'm trying to live more like Christ, but even it's not always about me trying, it's also about what God's spirit is doing in me. But every day I'm tempted to make something else my identity, whether that's, you know, a father, a husband, a pastor, or sometimes it's pleasure, or I want to be known for this skill or this talent. You know, obviously, culturally, we find a lot of identity, our identity in sexuality, and all the like all these, there's all these different things that compete for like who am I? Some of those things, I think when you get into like idolatry and some of that's sinful. Some of it, I mean, me being a father is not sinful. Me being a husband is not sinful. It's just not what I want my core identity to be. It's what I, it's who I am. It's an important part of who I am, it's a significant part of who I am. But at the end of the day, I want to be in Christ. And what does that mean? And how does that impact all of these other things? When it comes to my being a husband, when it comes to my being a father or a pastor or a son or a brother or an uncle or whatever else I am, those are all informed by that basic identity that I am in Christ. It's a struggle. That's why Jesus said you die to yourself every day. But I I think I think that's where a lot of times going back to what we were talking about, church hurt, church becomes such a business, an industry. This guy, Sky Jitani, who he hosts a podcast, he calls it the what's his name for it, um, the Christian industrial complex. I think it's what he calls it. That it's this there's this huge business, and there's conferences and there's books, and and pastors like anybody want to be good at what they want to do and they want to be successful. And so I think a lot of times we start off in a good place. Like most pastors I know, like they're good people, and they like got to it and they wanted to help people, and that's why they went into this. But somewhere along the way, you lose that identity and you become something else. Like, I'm not Scott in Christ, I'm Pastor Scott, and I lead this church and I do all these things, and I have this many staff, and we have this many groups, and we have this many, and you get lost, and that's when hurt happens. That's when we're I mean, we're always capable of hurting each other, but I think that's when we really cause that hurt. Like the the significant hurt that yeah, that people and and sometimes it may not even be significant hurt in the congregation, it may be our family. We may pastor the whole time and the congregation thinks we're great and we're there for 40 years and we retire and right off into the sunset. But our family is completely wounded because we just we were a total hypocrite or we neglected them, or it's sad, it's sad, but that's a lot of times what and and please hear me out. I'm not trying to justify why pastors hurt people. I think it's wrong. I just think when you look at and this kind of gets back to a question before, why is the church why did God use the church if it's if it's flawed people? It's we want so hard, we want so much to be like this great perfect church and this great perfect leader, and so we tend to kind of gloss over our own struggles. I honestly think the more we could embrace our humanity, the better it would be, and the less church hurt we'd have all the way around. Like if we were honest about if we were honest and vulnerable, and if if as the church, like there just always is within the church, like there's and there is culturality too. Like you see it, like social media is probably the worst. Everybody on Instagram is like, look, my family's perfect, and my family's great, and we all know that right before we take these pictures, we're fighting with each other, like you know, but there's this this cultural pressure to like we have it all together, and I think that exists with pastors, I think that exists with congregation members, and so that's why sometimes churches don't become these safe places to be authentic, and it's not because we're trying to be hypocritical, it's just like man, I just I just want everyone to think that we're honoring God. I just want everyone to think that we've put God first and we have it all, and somehow, if whatever, somehow our family's struggling, my marriage is struggling, my finances are struggling, people are gonna read that as I'm not faithful to God. And that's just not true. You can be completely faithful to God and be struggling in your job or your finances or your marriage. And so if we could just make it like this side of heaven, we're never gonna be there. And so let's be okay with our own humanity, let's be okay with the humanity of our leaders, and yeah, let's hold each other accountable and let's challenge each other and and not make excuses for the points at which we fail, but let's not pedestal people, let's not have unreasonable expectations. Let's understand that sometimes everyone's we're gonna let each other down, we're gonna disagree, we're gonna frustrate each other. And I think if we can do that with the little things, it may prevent us from getting to the big things.
Nancy Bruscher:What I heard and what I've been like thinking and praying about is that this is so difficult. This is so difficult as far as like being real, but also I think we're gonna talk about it as like far as like responding and maybe healing from it. Like there's just no black and white. And what I was thinking was is how I have it written down on John 1:17, that grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. And I know you've talked about that, and it and this is what makes I feel like Christianity so I want to say difficult, maybe, is that there's there's truth and there's grace, right? There's these two things that almost feel like they're in conflict with each other, and it's so hard to do both. And that's why I think that as people, it's easier just to go one way or the other, right? Like I can either pick grace or I can pick truth, but to actually do both is super hard. And I feel like that's what this conversation is, is like it's just hard, right? Like there's not an easy answer. There's not like a oh, fix it or just do this and everything's fine. But I think that's just what Christianity is, and I feel like that's just what Jesus calls us to as well.
Scott Martin:Yeah. And I do think like we do talk about that at the church. Like, how do you embrace that tension? Again, we we always want to resolve tension. Like when you talk to people about Jesus, everybody will kind of have their favorite story. Like, oh, I like when Jesus clears the temple, or I like when Jesus washes his apostles' feet. And it's like those two stories, for example, those are both Jesus and those are both very different stories. Jesus is both of those people at the same time. He's not someone completely different. And so we always want to reconcile Jesus into like this easy to understand. So we either pigeonhole him as like, oh, he's the the truth-telling prophet, or no, he's the grace-filled pastor. But no, he's he's both. And so to follow Jesus is to embrace that tension of again to your point in churches, it's like, yeah, here's here's our or here to what we're talking about, here's our church leaders. They're good, flawed people. And how do we, you know, how do we hold them accountable? Like I do, and Paul says it, like, hey, church leaders should be held to a higher standard. But also it's okay that they're flawed. It's okay that they say things I disagree with. It's okay that are going to get things wrong sometimes, or they're going to make a decision that's going to turn out to not be the right decision. And and and that's okay. And again, if we let them fail in the little things, then maybe that stops it from getting big. Because it's when you fail when you get all the criticism from the and it's true in life too. Like it should be okay for congregation members to come into churches and be like, yeah, I'm just you know what I'm just struggling with this. I'm not doing well with this. This is an issue for me. We don't have to jump to this like, you know, you're horrible. You're like you're a bad Christian where your priorities like life's not that easy. It doesn't like it's you can be a faithful Christian and suffer like Job. Like it's it's not a it's not a formula. It's not yeah how do we learn to live in that that I think the best parents honestly learn to live in that tension. I mean you and I both have kids when you have kids and they make a mistake it's like do I forgive you? Do I punish you? There's not always one right answer.
Nancy Bruscher:Right.
Scott Martin:Like if I'll if I punish you severely every single time our relationship's probably not going to be good. But if I let you if I just oh it's okay it's okay it's okay that's not good either. But at the same time like if you just alternate between the two then there's there's like there's yeah there's no stability there's no stability for your kids and they're they're not going to know how like so it's it's just living in that tension and like in this moment man how do I respond? What is the spirit doing in this moment? How do I respond in this moment? Um and it's not going to be the same in every moment it's not going to be the same in every situation. It's going to be a little bit frustrating. It may move slower at times but that's okay.
Nancy Bruscher:We had Jeff Phillips was a speaker and I just got so much just God was like yes this is important for you guys to talk about because I I have been I don't want to say worried but I have been like I want to do this well. Like I don't want to add more church hurt by talking about this. But it gave me such clarity he said this I wanted to read this quote I have been hurt by people in the church we all have but I have been healed by people in the church through Jesus Christ. That's the beauty of the church not perfection. And I thought I just thought that was such a clear concise wonderful way to say that.
Scott Martin:Yeah and he he has I mean he because he's been a missionary for 50 years. And so most everything that they do is funded by churches or individuals in the US I mean they have some connections in Europe and things like that and and they try to do self-sustaining self-funding ministries. I know from talking to him there's been some churches that have treated him horribly horribly. But yeah you hear in his story that what brought him to faith was a church. It wasn't necessarily like this this great message it was this group of people that loved one another that he could not understand. He couldn't make sense of why they loved one another until he found learned Jesus is is the foundation of it. But yeah that that is the is most people when you talk to most people a big part of their healing is the community of the church because whatever our hurt is hurt always tends to isolate us because it produces shame and it produces guilt or it produces anger and whatever it is all those things push us away from people and isolate us and the more isolated we are that stuff just grows and builds yeah Jesus is the one that heals us Jesus is the one that restores usus is the one that redeems us and and back to the question we've been wrestling with this whole time why the church because Jesus understands the only way we heal is with each other. Healing doesn't happen on on your own healing happens when you can walk into a group of people who know you're flawed who know you're broken and who will embrace you and who will love you and who will be there for you no matter what. So if there is no church if there is no body there is no reconciliation. You would never experience it. Like it would be a logical thing that like okay maybe logically I can make sense with this but the body I mean that's why you use that metaphor the body the body is actually how how we experience that and so yeah so where where the church may be the source of our legitimate hurt that we experienced rejection or abuse or whatever the only potential for our healing is in the church. The church truly being the church the church loving us even with but that's where it gets hard because if my hurt is from the church do I want to go back there? Do I want to and that's where somebody like Jeff is an inspiration to me. Because here's a guy who will never ever give up on the church. And he has a lot of reasons to but he doesn't because if you've seen the there there is nothing in my mind there's I mean I like I said COVID was a nightmare and I experienced a lot of bad things. But I have seen nothing in this world as beautiful as when the church comes together. They're just when you see it and experience it there's nothing that matches it at all.
Nancy Bruscher:Something else that he said that really stuck with me is he just kept saying I love the church and you could actually see and feel that he meant it. And a couple things came to mind one was that the church is Jesus's bride and I'd love for you to kind of talk about that why we say that and also it reminded me of that if the church is Jesus's bride what does Jesus feel like when we talk badly about it one but then I also thought about like early on in our marriage Chris and I heard people that would put their spouse down like when they were away from them they would just like I don't know like some silly things and some terrible things and you're like oh my goodness like you're talking about your spouse in this way. And then I think how am I supposed to now think about your spouse right like it's very hard now for me to think of that person as good because you've just like slandered them. So I thought that was so interesting as far as like I won't say anything bad about my husband to like you or something. You know what I mean? And he wouldn't do the same about me. And are we doing the same about Jesus' bride?
Scott Martin:Yeah that's a good um I've actually heard pastors do that just tell jokes about their because sometimes you'll see it like comedians like if you if you watch like comedians be like oh my wife this my wife that or whatever. And and so that was a commitment that I had made early on same thing like I'm never going to speak down about my wife ever. One because I don't think that's honoring to her and I love her. And and two like you said I just I don't think that's a good example to like like because we tend to just add to each other. So if one person complains and the next person then we just keep building and building but yeah too like we talked a little bit about this like your bride like when you talk about bride and you could you could flip the metaphor around and say husband too if you want to but your your spouse most of us are going to know like you would know you and Chris have been married for a while like he's not perfect. Right. I know that I know that my wife is not perfect. I'm not going to stand here and say everything about her is perfect. But at the same time you better not talk trash about my wife this is this is my wife this is my bride this is I would do anything for her I would give up anything for her. As much as we may acknowledge you're not perfect, you still don't back talk it. Because one, it's just an issue of respect for her, but also even for me. And so I think Jesus using that metaphor of this is my bride that lets us know how he feels about the church. That the church isn't just some club that he started like hey here's this this club and you can join it if you want to that no this is my bride that I gave my life for and yeah I know she's not perfect. And I'm not going to pretend that she's perfect. But when you talk bad about my bride I actually think I take that harsher than than Linda would. Like if we found out that someone was oh someone's saying this about about my wife she would be hurt and she would be upset. I actually think I'd be more upset. And I think that's probably the way that Jesus feels now I want to be careful that I I do think it's okay and we should as a church we should be able to acknowledge when we've messed up we should we should we we should be the first to admit you know we got that wrong or that's not right. Or if someone sometimes we're blind to that and someone calls us out we should be able to admit yes yes we we were wrong we did that we repent but I do think we have to be careful that we're not getting into gossiping destroying Jesus bride because again one day and I don't I don't say this is a fear thing but like one day we stand before God one day we stand before Jesus and it's like hey what what did you say about my bride? How did you how did you treat my bride? Because how you treat the bride is an indication of of how you treat Jesus and again I'm not telling people like if if people experienced like abuse or things like that within the like within the church there's a whole lot of difficulty that and I'm not telling you you should get over it and go back to that church and and I know there's a long healing process but I I do think we're not always always cognizant of who or what we're talking about. That this isn't just like you know I like this organization or I like that organization. That this is the bride of Christ of which his spirit is alive within this body he's redeeming it he's restoring it. This is how he's working within the world and so too quickly we just get mad and walk away whereas what would it be like Jeff is a good example but there's a lot of other people that are examples to like man I'm gonna pour my everything into making the bride of Christ as good and as beautiful as it can be because that's that's this this is this is the hope of the world there there is no this is the hope of the world this is Jesus' bride this is what he's chosen this is what he staked his mission on it's what he staked his kind of reputation on. And so how do we build it up instead of just tearing it down? Yes how do we talk honestly about it? How do we repent? But how do we work to build it up to make it better as opposed to just trashing it.
Nancy Bruscher:Yeah and I think that that comes back to what we were talking about like grace and truth right like things don't need to be swept under the rug and Jesus tells us how to confront people right in Matthew 18 he tells us how to do that. So he's not saying like don't have conversations right I especially feel like it happens with with like gossip or just small things of the church or I don't like the music or I don't like this and they can become big things and you're like well this is Jesus's bride though you guys this is like we're we're his bride and also what I was thinking was as we go to the same church but there are also other churches right all over the world. And so to be respectful and loving of all churches and not just someone that you go to if that makes sense because especially with with like social media you kind of know what other churches are doing.
Scott Martin:I mean sometimes you have friends that go to other churches but sometimes you'll just see a church will put up an advertisement or you'll see like a little reel or something of this pastor. And it's really easy to be like that church is nuts or that church is whacked or that church is this or that church is that but it's like no we are one embodiment of this universal family. And so even though I may talk real well about Southeast where we go like oh Southeast is great Southeast is awesome if I'm over here trashing this other church well that's not any better. They're just as much his bride as as we are I have a friend a guy in staff here actually we were talking the other day even that's one of his things about you know Jesus says in in John in the Last Supper as he's praying that the world will know that you've sent me really by the oneness of the church. And Steve, he's our missions pastor he was saying that he goes yeah the world doesn't know and partly to blame for that is because the church isn't one because we're divided because we divide amongst ourselves and we talk bad about ourselves and we gossip about ourselves and we put each other down that the center of our witness is our unity and our love for each other that's founded on our love for Jesus.
Nancy Bruscher:This has been so good Scott and we're almost at an hour. I can't believe it like where did the time go? So I wanted to just ask if there is something that you're like hey we need to we need to say this before we just kind of I have a couple closing questions but is there something that you're like hey we gotta we gotta share this before we get off this topic.
Scott Martin:For people that have experienced church hurt no matter what that looks like you're an individual who's experienced it from a leader or you feel rejected from from the church or maybe if you're even a pastor that's felt rejected I just one I just want to acknowledge that and say you know we we see you and I think that I think that's legitimate and and I think that hurts because pain always hurts the worst when you experience it from places that you feel like you shouldn't. That's why it's hard from family it's hard from the church. And as a church leader I just I want to apologize for that. And I really do want to say I'm sorry that we we should be better. We need to learn but I also want to encourage you to don't let that be the end of your journey that that's why I think a healthy view of church a healthy view of leaders a healthy view of pastors is here we're all human. Again that doesn't excuse some but just what's one small step we said it but I really believe it like a lot of times we get hurt our our biggest hurts come from other people but that's where our healing comes from too and the church is an incredibly healing community when it's at its best and so how how can you begin to take a step?
Nancy Bruscher:That's really good. What is your favorite Bible verse?
Scott Martin:So my favorite verse is actually Acts 2024 where Paul's talking about he says I consider my life worth nothing if only I can finish the task that the Lord Jesus has given to me the task of testifying to the good news kind of like Paul I just kind of feel compelled by that.
Nancy Bruscher:But that's what I I want to share good news with people and I just like how consuming that is well we're wrapping up this series and I do pray that Jesus just met people in their hearts that they learned something. Maybe if it wasn't even anything like really about church hurt but we talked about identity and we talked about you know being a bride and just like a lot of things. So I can't wait to hear how God is going to use these words. I'm just so thankful for this time. I really enjoyed it.
Scott Martin:Yeah thank you Nancy I did too thank you so much for for what you do and for this and for having these conversations it's important and I know it's really helpful for people. So thank you.
Nancy Bruscher:Thank you. On Ordinary People Extraordinary Things your story is his glory. I pray that this conversation has really impacted your heart. I know it has for me. I'm so thankful that you are part of Ordinary People Extraordinary things. Thanks for continuing to listen and share these stories with others. I'll see you in two weeks for a brand new episode